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	<title>Comments on: A Sumerian Observation of the Köfels Impact? Almost Certainly Not&#8230;.</title>
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	<link>http://bluecollarscientist.com/2008/04/01/a-sumerian-observation-of-the-kofels-impact-almost-certainly-not/</link>
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	<pubDate>Fri, 22 Aug 2008 02:04:43 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: whatithink &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Blue Collar Scientist</title>
		<link>http://bluecollarscientist.com/2008/04/01/a-sumerian-observation-of-the-kofels-impact-almost-certainly-not/#comment-2264</link>
		<dc:creator>whatithink &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Blue Collar Scientist</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 12 Aug 2008 16:42:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bluecollarscientist.com/?p=253#comment-2264</guid>
		<description>[...] A Sumerian Observation of the Köfels Impact? Almost Certainly Not…. [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] A Sumerian Observation of the Köfels Impact? Almost Certainly Not…. [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Blue Collar Scientist &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Comment and Link of the Week</title>
		<link>http://bluecollarscientist.com/2008/04/01/a-sumerian-observation-of-the-kofels-impact-almost-certainly-not/#comment-1090</link>
		<dc:creator>Blue Collar Scientist &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Comment and Link of the Week</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 17 Apr 2008 13:41:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bluecollarscientist.com/?p=253#comment-1090</guid>
		<description>[...] at Archaeoporn and Blue Collar Scientist&#8217;s look at a new book claiming that Sumerians observed an asteroid impact on Earth (hint: he doubts it very [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] at Archaeoporn and Blue Collar Scientist&#8217;s look at a new book claiming that Sumerians observed an asteroid impact on Earth (hint: he doubts it very [...]</p>
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		<title>By: blue collar scientist</title>
		<link>http://bluecollarscientist.com/2008/04/01/a-sumerian-observation-of-the-kofels-impact-almost-certainly-not/#comment-1065</link>
		<dc:creator>blue collar scientist</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 16 Apr 2008 17:12:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bluecollarscientist.com/?p=253#comment-1065</guid>
		<description>For those still following this saga, I've just &lt;a href="http://bluecollarscientist.com/2008/04/16/a-response-to-mark-hempsell/" rel="nofollow"&gt;posted a response to the outlandish claims&lt;/a&gt; that Mark Hempsell has made above.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>For those still following this saga, I&#8217;ve just <a href="http://bluecollarscientist.com/2008/04/16/a-response-to-mark-hempsell/" rel="nofollow">posted a response to the outlandish claims</a> that Mark Hempsell has made above.</p>
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		<title>By: Blue Collar Scientist &#187; Blog Archive &#187; A Response to Mark Hempsell</title>
		<link>http://bluecollarscientist.com/2008/04/01/a-sumerian-observation-of-the-kofels-impact-almost-certainly-not/#comment-1064</link>
		<dc:creator>Blue Collar Scientist &#187; Blog Archive &#187; A Response to Mark Hempsell</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 16 Apr 2008 17:10:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bluecollarscientist.com/?p=253#comment-1064</guid>
		<description>[...] original takedown is here, and even though I wrote it before I realized that the Bad Astronomer, StumbleUpon, and other [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] original takedown is here, and even though I wrote it before I realized that the Bad Astronomer, StumbleUpon, and other [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Don Ameche</title>
		<link>http://bluecollarscientist.com/2008/04/01/a-sumerian-observation-of-the-kofels-impact-almost-certainly-not/#comment-1061</link>
		<dc:creator>Don Ameche</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 16 Apr 2008 15:13:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bluecollarscientist.com/?p=253#comment-1061</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;A final point on free copies; we have sent around 100 copies to journals and researchers in the field (deleted) I am sorry if you did not end up on that list, but I hope you can see the problem of sending copies to every anonymous web blogger.&lt;/i&gt;

But the author of this post is not anonymous. His name is disclosed here, and he's an actual (gasp) asteroid researcher with (gasp) published, peer-reviewed results relating to asteroid dynamics and impact. He's also written for the four largest astronomy magazines in the world, and was on staff at the second-largest. As a reviewer, as it happens.

And the 100 free copies of the book thing is silly. Post a preprint on the arXiv astrophysics server. Or send BCS a PDF. This doesn't cost any money. I seriously doubt the book will do any better than the press release, but if you are so confident, start treating your colleagues, and ones who actually work in the field you are writing about, respectfully. Subject your work to review.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>A final point on free copies; we have sent around 100 copies to journals and researchers in the field (deleted) I am sorry if you did not end up on that list, but I hope you can see the problem of sending copies to every anonymous web blogger.</i></p>
<p>But the author of this post is not anonymous. His name is disclosed here, and he&#8217;s an actual (gasp) asteroid researcher with (gasp) published, peer-reviewed results relating to asteroid dynamics and impact. He&#8217;s also written for the four largest astronomy magazines in the world, and was on staff at the second-largest. As a reviewer, as it happens.</p>
<p>And the 100 free copies of the book thing is silly. Post a preprint on the arXiv astrophysics server. Or send BCS a PDF. This doesn&#8217;t cost any money. I seriously doubt the book will do any better than the press release, but if you are so confident, start treating your colleagues, and ones who actually work in the field you are writing about, respectfully. Subject your work to review.</p>
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		<title>By: sofista - Nueva interpretación de una tablilla cuneiforme (crítica)</title>
		<link>http://bluecollarscientist.com/2008/04/01/a-sumerian-observation-of-the-kofels-impact-almost-certainly-not/#comment-1046</link>
		<dc:creator>sofista - Nueva interpretación de una tablilla cuneiforme (crítica)</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 15 Apr 2008 17:58:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bluecollarscientist.com/?p=253#comment-1046</guid>
		<description>A la gente Blue Collar Scientist les parecieron poco científicas las tesis expuestas en el artículo anterior de esta serie. Y las someten a una serie de críticas, de las cuales quizá la más importante es la falta de cráter en la zona de impacto —incluso habría datos que excluyen la posibilidad misma de un impacto—, mientras las otras críticas cuestionan y reducen la plausibilidad de las tesis restantes.  [...]  Pero hay más. Mark Hempsell, uno de los autores del libro, responde en los comentarios del blog  [...].</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>A la gente Blue Collar Scientist les parecieron poco científicas las tesis expuestas en el artículo anterior de esta serie. Y las someten a una serie de críticas, de las cuales quizá la más importante es la falta de cráter en la zona de impacto —incluso habría datos que excluyen la posibilidad misma de un impacto—, mientras las otras críticas cuestionan y reducen la plausibilidad de las tesis restantes.  [...]  Pero hay más. Mark Hempsell, uno de los autores del libro, responde en los comentarios del blog  [...].</p>
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		<title>By: Mark Hempsell</title>
		<link>http://bluecollarscientist.com/2008/04/01/a-sumerian-observation-of-the-kofels-impact-almost-certainly-not/#comment-1042</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark Hempsell</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 15 Apr 2008 13:58:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bluecollarscientist.com/?p=253#comment-1042</guid>
		<description>Given this blog seems to be going on longer than the many other websites can I once more make the point that there no issue or argument has been made here that is not covered by the book, including why the tablet was copied and the status of written language at the end of the fourth millennium, (and yes there are detailed reproductions of the tablet and King drawing of the tablet). 

Also Douglas, the book includes the impact velocity which was 15 km/s for the best match orbit and goes down to 12 km/s for some alternatives. It is definitely neither stony nor iron (what Aten is?) indeed the impact dynamics suggest a density below 1000 kg/m3. The impact effect will be over estimated by Marcus, Melosh, and Collins because of the Alpine terrain. The way it reaches the south east Mediterranean is the back plume which is deflected by the low pressure region behind the object, an effect well documented during the Shoemaker/Levy 9 impact. Please also note the warning in the book that our analysis is rather crude and first order and ignores lift effects, therefore our estimate of the plume re-entry point may be out.

However I am not going to go through every point raised on every website. Alan and I have spent three years on the write up alone preparing the presentation of our arguments as we wish people to read them, and no-one on any website has yet come up with anything we have not considered and already carefully answered in the book. This is not an attempt to sell the book, which is simply an extended paper and about as gripping as the San Paulo telephone directory translated into Japanese, but if you want to publically slag it off as delusional pseudo-science please do us the courtesy of finding out what we are actually saying first. To date (and I know it is early days) I know of nobody who has actually read the book making this sort of criticism.

A final point on free copies; we have sent around 100 copies to journals and researchers in the field, (and in a strange reversal of the current argument several expressed surprise saying they had expected to buy it). I am sorry if you did not end up on that list, but I hope you can see the problem of sending copies to every anonymous web blogger. We have made every effort (including the use of self publishing) to keep the price low, and if even that is not good enough then get it from the library for free.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Given this blog seems to be going on longer than the many other websites can I once more make the point that there no issue or argument has been made here that is not covered by the book, including why the tablet was copied and the status of written language at the end of the fourth millennium, (and yes there are detailed reproductions of the tablet and King drawing of the tablet). </p>
<p>Also Douglas, the book includes the impact velocity which was 15 km/s for the best match orbit and goes down to 12 km/s for some alternatives. It is definitely neither stony nor iron (what Aten is?) indeed the impact dynamics suggest a density below 1000 kg/m3. The impact effect will be over estimated by Marcus, Melosh, and Collins because of the Alpine terrain. The way it reaches the south east Mediterranean is the back plume which is deflected by the low pressure region behind the object, an effect well documented during the Shoemaker/Levy 9 impact. Please also note the warning in the book that our analysis is rather crude and first order and ignores lift effects, therefore our estimate of the plume re-entry point may be out.</p>
<p>However I am not going to go through every point raised on every website. Alan and I have spent three years on the write up alone preparing the presentation of our arguments as we wish people to read them, and no-one on any website has yet come up with anything we have not considered and already carefully answered in the book. This is not an attempt to sell the book, which is simply an extended paper and about as gripping as the San Paulo telephone directory translated into Japanese, but if you want to publically slag it off as delusional pseudo-science please do us the courtesy of finding out what we are actually saying first. To date (and I know it is early days) I know of nobody who has actually read the book making this sort of criticism.</p>
<p>A final point on free copies; we have sent around 100 copies to journals and researchers in the field, (and in a strange reversal of the current argument several expressed surprise saying they had expected to buy it). I am sorry if you did not end up on that list, but I hope you can see the problem of sending copies to every anonymous web blogger. We have made every effort (including the use of self publishing) to keep the price low, and if even that is not good enough then get it from the library for free.</p>
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		<title>By: Irishman</title>
		<link>http://bluecollarscientist.com/2008/04/01/a-sumerian-observation-of-the-kofels-impact-almost-certainly-not/#comment-1029</link>
		<dc:creator>Irishman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 14 Apr 2008 19:30:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bluecollarscientist.com/?p=253#comment-1029</guid>
		<description>Minor error in an otherwise fabulous article.

&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;blockquote&gt;The observation suggests the asteroid is over a kilometre in diameter and the original orbit about the Sun was an Aten type, a class of asteroid that orbit close to the earth, that is resonant with the Earth’s orbit.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

The bit about the Aten asteroids being resonant is just wrong. Many are resonant, some more strongly than others; but Aten asteroids are defined as those with a semi-major axis of less than one astronomical unit.... That’s all - you don’t need the asteroid to be in a resonant orbit to be an Aten. &lt;/blockquote&gt;

I believe you misread that sentence.  I think the actual meaning was
"The observation suggests the asteroid is over a kilometre in diameter and the original orbit about the Sun was an Aten type that is resonant with the Earth’s orbit.  An Aten is a class of asteroid that orbit close to the earth."  The fact that the description was offset by commas indicates it was a modifying dependent clause interrupting the main clause.  The resonant description was an additional bit of information besides the description as an Aten.

Not that it makes anything else you said incorrect.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Minor error in an otherwise fabulous article.</p>
<blockquote><blockquote>The observation suggests the asteroid is over a kilometre in diameter and the original orbit about the Sun was an Aten type, a class of asteroid that orbit close to the earth, that is resonant with the Earth’s orbit.</p></blockquote>
<p>The bit about the Aten asteroids being resonant is just wrong. Many are resonant, some more strongly than others; but Aten asteroids are defined as those with a semi-major axis of less than one astronomical unit&#8230;. That’s all - you don’t need the asteroid to be in a resonant orbit to be an Aten. </p></blockquote>
<p>I believe you misread that sentence.  I think the actual meaning was<br />
&#8220;The observation suggests the asteroid is over a kilometre in diameter and the original orbit about the Sun was an Aten type that is resonant with the Earth’s orbit.  An Aten is a class of asteroid that orbit close to the earth.&#8221;  The fact that the description was offset by commas indicates it was a modifying dependent clause interrupting the main clause.  The resonant description was an additional bit of information besides the description as an Aten.</p>
<p>Not that it makes anything else you said incorrect.</p>
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		<title>By: Blue Collar Scientist &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Science and Skepticism in Anchorage: April 11 Edition</title>
		<link>http://bluecollarscientist.com/2008/04/01/a-sumerian-observation-of-the-kofels-impact-almost-certainly-not/#comment-1021</link>
		<dc:creator>Blue Collar Scientist &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Science and Skepticism in Anchorage: April 11 Edition</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 14 Apr 2008 13:31:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bluecollarscientist.com/?p=253#comment-1021</guid>
		<description>[...] of other stuff. Someone there, who hadn&#8217;t read it, asked me about my blog post about the supposed Sumerian observation of an asteroid impact. I gave a description of the problems with the impact hypothesis, as well as an explanation of why [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] of other stuff. Someone there, who hadn&#8217;t read it, asked me about my blog post about the supposed Sumerian observation of an asteroid impact. I gave a description of the problems with the impact hypothesis, as well as an explanation of why [...]</p>
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		<title>By: blue collar scientist</title>
		<link>http://bluecollarscientist.com/2008/04/01/a-sumerian-observation-of-the-kofels-impact-almost-certainly-not/#comment-1020</link>
		<dc:creator>blue collar scientist</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 14 Apr 2008 12:48:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bluecollarscientist.com/?p=253#comment-1020</guid>
		<description>Some Dude: I don't see how a Tunguska event could cause successive large landslides as observed at Köfels, so I would say no, it would not explain the observed geology there. The "hypothesis" of an impact at Köfels, resulting in widespread ejecta over Egypt and the Levant, would not fit with a Tunguska event either. Spreading ejecta around depends upon processes that form craters - specifically, the propagation of a shock wave through the ground. Tunguska was an airburst, and sent no significant shock energy into the ground - there was no crater. Airbursts would have to be hellishly powerful to spread ejecta in the suborbital way that this book seems to think happened, at any rate.

Textual folks: Thanks for weighing in on the subject of copying very old Sumerian texts. I defer to your expertise and grant that the possibility of copying is greater than I originally credited. I still have a little problem using a copy (of a copy of a copy?) of an observation to compute an orbit with &lt;a href="http://www.lowell.edu/users/elgb/moid.html" rel="nofollow"&gt;a MOID&lt;/a&gt; smaller than Earth's diameter. I've got some familiarity with textual criticism of the bible, and the kinds of transmission errors seen there, if committed in the Sumerian copy, would preclude the determination of an orbit so precisely as to characterize it as an Earth-impactor, or as an Aten-family asteroid, to say nothing of both. I guess what I'm saying is that solving the copying problem seems to me to strike another blow against the book's hypothesis - we have one textual witness that preserves unknown transmission errors, from which the authors claim they have computed a particular kind of orbit, while modern astronomers find this same task daunting on a routine basis even when the data are generated to much higher precision and don't contain errors....</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Some Dude: I don&#8217;t see how a Tunguska event could cause successive large landslides as observed at Köfels, so I would say no, it would not explain the observed geology there. The &#8220;hypothesis&#8221; of an impact at Köfels, resulting in widespread ejecta over Egypt and the Levant, would not fit with a Tunguska event either. Spreading ejecta around depends upon processes that form craters - specifically, the propagation of a shock wave through the ground. Tunguska was an airburst, and sent no significant shock energy into the ground - there was no crater. Airbursts would have to be hellishly powerful to spread ejecta in the suborbital way that this book seems to think happened, at any rate.</p>
<p>Textual folks: Thanks for weighing in on the subject of copying very old Sumerian texts. I defer to your expertise and grant that the possibility of copying is greater than I originally credited. I still have a little problem using a copy (of a copy of a copy?) of an observation to compute an orbit with <a href="http://www.lowell.edu/users/elgb/moid.html" rel="nofollow">a MOID</a> smaller than Earth&#8217;s diameter. I&#8217;ve got some familiarity with textual criticism of the bible, and the kinds of transmission errors seen there, if committed in the Sumerian copy, would preclude the determination of an orbit so precisely as to characterize it as an Earth-impactor, or as an Aten-family asteroid, to say nothing of both. I guess what I&#8217;m saying is that solving the copying problem seems to me to strike another blow against the book&#8217;s hypothesis - we have one textual witness that preserves unknown transmission errors, from which the authors claim they have computed a particular kind of orbit, while modern astronomers find this same task daunting on a routine basis even when the data are generated to much higher precision and don&#8217;t contain errors&#8230;.</p>
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